https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrtsE2QmDnk&ab_channel=RogerCastillo-BeingLived Transcript 0:27 Welcome everyone 0:58 to another Saturday satsang just to give you a heads up on the 1:05 20 second I think that will be the last 1:10 Saturday satsang for a um about three weeks um while the retreat is on 1:16 uh so there's the two after this or three after this up to about the 22nd of 1:23 October and um and then during the retreat 1:29 um that I'm having uh there won't be Saturday settings and 1:35 then I'll recommence after the retreat I'll let you know when that's going to happen I'll also be traveling a bit 1:40 towards the end of the year and into next year so um there might not be as regular a routine 1:47 as um has been over the last two and a half years um 1:53 so I was thinking of a couple of things that came to mind that I'd talk about and then we can go into question and 2:00 answers or comments so anyone who would like to interact 2:06 um put your electronic hand up and once I see a hand up 2:11 or two and it feels like I've spoken enough we'll go to go to you 2:19 um so one of the things 2:27 that prevents human 2:33 existence being what it can be is the 2:39 fact that there is a development um or a structure gets set in place or a 2:48 set of belief systems however you want to um call it that 2:55 makes us um move towards things in life 3:02 um feeling like life is about getting somewhere or achieving something 3:08 making something happen and 3:14 until life delivers a change such that it 3:21 starts to become apparent to the system to you 3:27 that stopping 3:32 and dropping out of a certain movement that is what we could call The Human 3:39 Condition habituated the default um condition 3:47 dropping out of that and doing something very different which 3:54 is actually stopping 3:59 and just being until the system starts to experience that and its validity and in fact more 4:06 than its validity but it's um 4:12 it's it's value and as it becomes more and more 4:20 accustomed to functioning in life that way 4:26 I.E letting life happen with as much time 4:32 without life needing to be anything in particular without life delivering just 4:37 being with what is which what is um 4:43 in a lot of cases can be just 4:48 the environment in a fairly mundane form 4:54 um when nothing unusual is happening nothing unusual is being delivered 5:00 and yet it's not about the circumstance it 5:06 changes where it's no longer about the circumstance but rather about presence 5:12 you could say presence with the circumstance but rather its presence with 5:18 what is and the important part is the presence is presence with oneself 5:23 presence with an essence of oneself and we find that that essence 5:31 is self-fulfilling self-contented self 5:38 um confirming that it turns out that the very essence 5:46 that is what we are the core of the human being when it turns inwards meaning when 5:54 attention becomes aware of that dimension there is 6:02 and abiding that happens uh 6:08 uh groundedness in that essence and if 6:14 our habitual thinking and seeking um Falls away which it often does when 6:20 there is this turning inwards we find that um is the first time where the question 6:28 of what is the purpose of life gets answered in the strangest way not 6:34 we end up with an answer that says oh the purpose of life is such 6:40 and such but rather we find that the turning inwards and the silence 6:46 the absence of any question the absence of any seeking and a presence with 6:51 oneself delivers 6:58 a situation or a beingness where the question of purpose 7:05 just doesn't arise where the questions seem irrelevant 7:14 and so one of the things that we need to realize is that questions and seeking actually come out of a ground of 7:22 disconnection a ground of uncomfortableness when the uncomfortableness the 7:29 disconnection dissolve into fullness or connectedness 7:38 there is no question and so that's why often in Retreats or 7:46 in satsangs um the feeling is oh um I had all these 7:54 questions but they sort of don't seem relevant anymore um it 8:01 the you might have had a question before 8:06 sitting in satsang and it especially if the satsang is 8:12 um aimed at bringing you in the presence which 8:19 um satsangs can do and some 8:26 some expressions 8:31 are more powerful because of what they engage or disengage 8:39 um as they're heard so if we were to talk about your true essence being unchanging 8:47 being something that wasn't born and doesn't die that what you are 8:54 is not simply a physical entity not of this world that 9:02 your essence is formless consciousness that which is aware of everything that 9:09 comes and goes that which is aware of itself prior to any objects 9:20 and that that has been forgotten and that our destiny is 9:28 to recognize our true nature and realize that in the fullness that we already are 9:36 there's nothing to seek there's nowhere to go 9:42 and there is nothing missing 9:54 all of the things that feel like they're missing 10:00 all of the questions are not 10:05 absolutely real they appear 10:10 to be things that are missing because a movement of thought sometimes very deeply ingrained which 10:17 means it isn't even evident as thought it arises as feeling as emotion 10:27 because those thoughts and in their concentrated form feelings and emotions 10:32 arise there is a sense there is a feeling that something is 10:38 missing that a question is unanswered that information is missing that life 10:44 isn't being lived correctly um if we're not doing well enough that 10:51 we're messing it up and in the absence of 10:56 a certain movement of thought a certain movement of mind you could say 11:05 the sense of things being out of place just dissolves 11:34 so it's a great gift for us to realize for us to see that 11:40 there is a certain engagement in life a certain 11:47 ultimately thinking that when it ceases 11:54 when it dissolves is actually the end of the uncomfortableness 12:00 and the reason why it's important for us to see that is because that becomes part of the 12:06 mechanism of that movement of thought getting cut off from time to time 12:16 it only gets cut off once it is recognized as being it in itself 12:25 the thinking about a whole range of subjects essentially 12:33 um questions of and seeking after 12:38 um pleasures and outcomes blaming the other for what they did wouldn't do 12:44 feeling regret or guilt towards our own actions that didn't deliver great 12:51 outcomes or in hindsight we look at it and feel I'm ashamed or guilt about having 12:58 functioned a certain way when it's seen that the answer isn't 13:04 to have the past Rewritten the answer isn't to receive the 13:14 outcomes in the future that we feel are what a missing 13:20 the answer actually turns out to be a cessation of that line of movement 13:32 and it is elusive the recognition of that is elusive the recognition that 13:38 it's actually the thinking about certain things and 13:43 not what the thinking is about thinking about certain things is the 13:52 problem that is very hard to see 14:00 which is why I has a a guess it's saying 95 percent 14:06 or more of the population 14:12 will spend a whole lifetime 14:18 misguided about what the actual problem 14:26 as far as their happiness or contentment in life goes 14:32 so 95 of the population will die misguided as to what the actual problem 14:39 regards their happiness is 95 plus of the population will be 14:47 convinced that life was not ultimately 14:53 um satisfying or content or that they didn't feel content with life 15:01 they will feel convinced it is because certain outcomes weren't achieved or 15:08 because certain things were overlooked or missed certain decisions were made 15:13 that led to um life circumstance 15:20 blaming people for how they acted and blaming oneself out of the act that 15:25 that's what um foreign 15:31 majority of humans are forced to 15:36 think is the real problem and 15:42 whether it's five percent or 0.5 of a percent or 0.05 of a percent or less I'm 15:48 not sure a very small percentage will realize deeply 15:55 that it's actually not that but the thinking about that 16:05 that is really what disturbs now can we just stop 16:12 no not until the system is rewired and that 16:19 can be gradual but when it's rewired 16:24 so if someone is is if someone's system is wide and away 16:32 that the movement is to try to find happiness in the future 16:40 through changing one's life circumstance changing one's Behavior changing one's 16:47 personality changing one's way of interrelating and 16:53 Etc and so self-improvement if 16:59 if that's how someone is wired 17:06 you can't just tell someone to stop that even if someone heard this and says oh 17:13 is that just stop it's unlikely that the stopping is going 17:18 to happen because the system is wired that way however as life delivers new 17:25 conditioning that new conditioning changes the system and at some point the system is 17:32 so radically changed that 17:37 it is not possible for the person to truly think 17:44 that way so what I'm saying is 17:50 the the structure of our system dictates 17:58 whether we do think in the way that creates our uncomfortableness or we don't 18:08 and when the system changes it's very easy to stop 18:13 to just drop out of 18:18 certain narratives 18:24 the place that you find yourself when there is a dropping out of these narratives is right now 18:31 Here and Now and the dropping out essentially 18:39 is inspired by a deep understanding that 18:45 there I exist and I can be aware of my own existence and when there is 18:51 awareness of my own existence there is awareness of presence of consciousness 18:57 that is present with what is happening in this very moment 19:03 and the system will become familiar with the fact that certain thinking is the 19:10 absence of that presence and when their thinking arises 19:16 the system will move back into the value proposition the value 19:22 proposition is to be here now outside of The Narrative of thought 19:43 and we'll find that we can carry on our day 19:48 it doesn't mean sitting in deep meditation 19:53 for the whole day it we will find that at some point we 20:00 carry on our day doing whatever our destiny dictates whatever our life 20:05 circumstance requires us to do go to work look after the family meet up with friends 20:11 spend time in nature go traveling um do the jobs the chores that need to 20:18 be done and simultaneous to living a very 20:25 ordinary life with its pleasurable aspects and it's less pleasurable aspect 20:33 living a very ordinary life we find that all of that happens without the 20:40 previously incessant commentary and that commentary turns out 20:46 to be a very significant part of how we knew ourselves and how our self presented 20:54 so the dissolving of that commentary is a dissolution 20:59 of an aspect of our self which would say 21:04 was a very conceptual sense of self 21:10 very conceptual but um 21:15 powerful powerful in the sense that it had the ability to obscure 21:21 even our true self and that's why 21:28 we're often told we have forgotten ourselves and that 21:36 what we have come to know ourselves as is not real because it can just dissolve 21:45 fade away and then that person 21:51 the person that used to be which you could also say is a lens that 21:58 life was seen through no longer exists 22:07 and that doesn't mean that the personality will dissolve a lot of the biological traits and 22:15 characteristics will carry on but 22:21 in a deeper aspect of Who We Are 22:28 um dissolves the false sense of self dissolves and what is revealed is a more 22:37 innate essence so this leads me to 22:45 a post that I saw um a week or so ago from Rupert Spira 22:53 and I mentioned this hesitantly because the tendency is 23:01 for what I'm going to say to be taken as a criticism in it 23:09 isn't at all a criticism so why it might be taken as a criticism is because I 23:15 will provide an alternative now an alternative 23:21 is exactly that they're both we sh we should be able to 23:28 step from one perspective to another and 23:35 see them both as valid expressions 23:41 and even though they are saying something different 23:48 they should both be able to be held now often that's hard for us to do when 23:54 we're when we think conceptually because our thinking has 24:00 taken thought to be absolute and so it agrees with some thought 24:07 and then says that must be the truth so the post 24:15 said something like to say that I am God sounds arrogant 24:24 sounds like blasphemy even 24:30 but in fact it's to say that I am a person 24:35 is what is arrogant and ultimately misguided 24:43 to say I am a person is arrogant because it essentially is saying that 24:53 what I am is separate and independent and that for the same reason that's why 25:01 it is misguided so to say that I am God 25:10 is the correction or the shift in seeing 25:15 the shift in knowing oneself that honors 25:22 what is real so that was um the 25:28 post and I completely agree with it 25:33 because I understand what it was saying however 25:39 I encourage us to 25:44 realize that in this life we are people 25:50 Roger is a person and it's not misguided to say that and 25:57 it's not arrogant because there can be a recognition of a person 26:04 as being Connected To Source an expression of source in fact the definition of person in this 26:12 teaching is that the person is impersonal 26:17 consciousness of source leads to a particular Body Mind organism 26:22 and then functioning through that body mind organism as personal consciousness 26:28 and if the belief in personal doership and attachment to outcomes has dissolved 26:35 then the personal Consciousness is free of the 26:41 um desire and attachment and short-sightedness that creates the sense 26:47 of separation and the disconnect essentially 26:53 so what Rupert's post was pointing at is that as we normally know ourselves as we 27:01 ordinarily know ourself as a person means that there is 27:08 an inability to know our Essence to know our Essence as the essence of source or 27:16 the essence of consciousness and so if 27:22 so the post is really saying if we Proclaim I am a person as is normally 27:27 understood that is misunderstanding 27:34 now if on the other hand we come to realize the essence that is pointed at in the 27:42 post the essence that we really are where in fact we 27:47 can from a certain perspective understand and see why we would say that 27:53 that is God or source the absolute not 28:01 relative if we can come to understand that and 28:08 then realize that that is part of part and parcel of who we actually are that the human 28:15 expression until the body's death is the vehicle through which life is 28:21 experienced and lived and that we can know ourselves as a person where the 28:28 Consciousness and the body on munas 28:34 an integrated whole so from that point of view we can then 28:40 say I am a person and not fulfill of calling ourselves a person 28:49 where the belief in separation exists so the purpose of bringing this up is 28:55 not to criticize the post but rather to get a thinking 29:01 happening that sees the actual point and the point is 29:06 um just to see that whether we call ourselves a person or 29:12 not a person is not so important the the point is whether we realize we are 29:18 Connected To Source and that our Essence is that source 29:23 and so therefore we can feel that we are an expression of source and that source 29:30 is functioning through us as us that's where that's the point so showing 29:39 the two different perspectives one that says it's arrogant to call yourself a 29:45 person and then the other that says with understanding we will call ourselves a person 29:51 they're not contradictions it's important for our thinking to go 29:58 beyond the word person and see person is the problem 30:04 but to see what the deeper problem that is being pointed at is and that is the 30:10 obscuring or the realization of our connectedness to Source the fact 30:17 that source is functioning through us and so the notion of non-deership 30:24 is another way of saying that it is source that is functioning through 30:32 me it is source that it is living me so being lived means I am an expression 30:40 of source and I and there is a realization only because Source has allowed for that realization 30:47 that whatever I say whatever I think whatever I feel whatever I 30:52 however I act is all happening exactly as it is destined to 31:00 happen according to God's will according to consciousness that all of life is a play of 31:06 consciousness and 31:12 that the point where that theory 31:20 can be known directly where it isn't just a belief 31:27 is the point at which consciousness of source 31:34 recognizes itself as that which is prior to the body 31:39 and prior to thought and prior to perception it is that which is aware of the body it 31:47 is that which is aware of thought and that which is aware of perception and in and of itself we could say it is 31:55 not a function of mind not a function of brain 32:01 but that which encompasses all of the movements that we might call 32:07 brain or mind and that it really is 32:14 the ultimate and that's what we are in essence 32:24 once again that's not meant to be something that we try to think about but 32:31 the the real pointer is that we we are that which is here now 32:37 that is aware of thought meaning that which sees thought as an object 32:43 object arising out of nothing and subsiding back into nothing or rising out of itself 32:49 and back into itself that which we are sees thought a rise 32:57 out of itself and dissolve back into ourself and when I say that which we are I'm not talking 33:03 about a physical entity and this is where it can be helpful to 33:09 say I'm not talking about a person but rather about the formless awareness 33:14 that he's aware of the person 33:21 so that too might sound like a contradiction where we're saying oh so 33:26 now you're saying you're not a person but rather that which is aware of the 33:32 person that is the Awakening that is the realization 33:39 of the essence that has been overlooked and after sufficient time of 33:47 grounding and being really becoming familiar with that essence 33:53 then there is coming back down to earth you could say 34:01 realizing that oh yes this essence 34:07 is in fact the essence of what I am but life has to continue and does continue to be 34:14 lived from the perspective of the body and the mind the the 34:19 circumstance that's happening and the magic is where 34:25 we find or life delivers a potential 34:32 to live as the person without losing sight of one's connection 34:39 to source without losing sight of the fact that that source is what is 34:45 functioning through the body mind organism as personal Consciousness in other words that which is aware of 34:52 what's Happening from the point of view of this person 35:00 and so when we say God is aware of my life and we wonder how does he know my life 35:07 where is he aware of it from is he looking at it through sort of 35:14 universal CCTV system and 35:19 that sort of thinking is still creating an imaginary God a concept of God that 35:27 is aware of our life and when it Dawns on us that oh God is aware of 35:34 Roger's life simultaneous and not separately from Roger being aware of his life and the 35:41 clicks that God and Roger's awareness and not two things it's not Roger is 35:48 aware of life Mary Joan is aware of life and then God 35:53 is also aware separately God is aware because God is functioning through Roger 36:00 or through Joan or through Laura 36:07 and then it Dawns out oh God that is being pointed at 36:14 in all the teachings is the essence that I am 36:19 my awareness of the dog is God's awareness of the dog and here the thinking was saying 36:26 theoretically understanding just a concept an intellectual understanding God is aware of everything that happens 36:33 but that concept is a God that we're not in touch with when it becomes so alive 36:40 that my Consciousness the Consciousness that is aware of what's happening right now is God's consciousness 36:47 that is the Essence the awareness that is prior to 36:52 thinking prior to the body that is being pointed out it's so close it's been here 37:00 our whole life and it's a wonderful moment when 37:05 something is said that takes us out of conceptualizing about that which is 37:13 alive here and now and brings attention 37:18 awareness becoming aware of itself 37:34 so if you have a phone find yourself after if that awareness of oneself or 37:41 awareness of resting and being happens if you ever then see yourself having 37:47 questions about life or blaming the other have a look 37:54 and see if it's some form of attachment to outcome and see that thinking May in 38:02 fact be fueling the uncomfortableness and that's when we remember just come back and be 38:08 and it cuts off if we realize that a whole lot of thinking including blame 38:14 including desire and expectation in the future once we realize that thinking is 38:20 what disconnects us what makes us feel unhappy in life 38:26 then that's when the cutting off can happen and we just come back more and more frequently till 38:31 eventually we find ourselves at home there 38:47 Okay so so just slows hand up 38:55 hijara sloth hello energetic can you hear me 39:01 yes I can you can call me Erik Derek because Joseph is the formal one and it's better 39:10 just Derek if you if you want so yeah 39:16 like Derek jeric okay 39:21 in Poland we call like yarik but yeah I think very good thanks 39:29 yeah so I'm very pleased and like um touched by your wisdom and I'm 39:37 grateful for for the the showing of your seeing 39:43 and I like you to like say that I in this body and distractor has some I have 39:51 some like a little bit of work to do because I like feel some uncomfortable 39:58 with my like this area in this plot but I I like notice but okay 40:08 like he's saying that love is sometimes pleasure sometimes pain so 40:14 just accept and like that that like let 40:21 the space uh show what what want what you want to be like 40:27 um exposed to so it's a little bit like feeling like the mother when when 40:36 mother gives them life work for the child it can be like 40:43 some pain of the body but yeah it's just a bit maybe my like 40:49 metaphor is they just this might like this comes to me this metaphor but 40:55 I'd like it and when I think in life when we like give our attention to 41:02 children and we wanted to do something like from the calling from the highest 41:09 sometimes it's it can be like not always like comfortable but we can like have in 41:15 this deeper part like the knowing that this is good and this is good not why because we have some pleasure or some 41:23 interest from the future but this is like self-confirming by seeing what 41:28 happened it's a safe confirmed yeah thank you for listening my my my my 41:38 talk now and so my question for today Roger is because you said about this 41:46 personal and absolute side and what's your attack from this what is 41:54 understanding from this Christian like saying like for the personal one 42:01 what is the the Heaven and the hair for this the personal one how how we can see 42:09 this how you see this and especially because you said that and I know that in 42:15 this gut yeah seeing there is like There's No Lack and so there is no like 42:22 space there is no the vocabulary there is no like different dimension there is 42:27 no no sense to to like think in this like way 42:32 but still how you can say for the person what is 42:38 the like the place for for the person after that what is the heaven for the 42:43 person and maybe what was the hand or it is about the mind or or is 42:52 um yeah or if you're seeing is just the the hell and the the the the the 42:57 heaven it can be like now yeah so this is my my for today for you so thank you 43:07 yeah so I am think that the the notion of Heaven and Hell is very metaphorical 43:13 and in fact um as our understanding gets deeper and 43:19 deeper we move away from taking religion or teachings literally 43:25 um and it turned it usually is that religions are the ones that um 43:34 are for the masses let's say um and so 43:42 um religions tend to describe things 43:47 in um in a certain way and then the popular 43:54 interpretation is to take it literally um 43:59 and as the understanding deepens essentially we would probably tend to 44:05 move away from religions to more specific 44:12 um wisdom teachings it's not to say that religions um don't have a lot of wisdom but as 44:20 they are delivered to the masses they include a lot of dualistic 44:25 um uh Frameworks in them because that is what the mass can understand 44:33 so in Christianity for example or Buddhism or Islam Judaism there are the 44:42 Mystic um versions so you'll have mystical Christianity 44:48 you'll have um uh the mystical Islam like um 44:55 Kabir and Hafiz um and 45:03 uh I forget the the branch I think it's 45:09 Kabbalah maybe um nonetheless all of the one 45:18 maybe maybe I'm I'm not sure but um the point the point is in all of the 45:26 religions there are the more mystical versions um the more Transcendent versions and 45:32 that is there for those that um have processed the more dualistic 45:41 and then move on from that 45:47 so um the notion to me of Heaven and Hell Is 45:52 is very metaphorical and shouldn't be taken literally and we will move away 45:57 from taking it literally at a certain point we realize that death 46:04 is really not talking about death of the body often 46:10 so heaven is said in Christianity if you read in 46:15 between the lines um or you find the areas it says heaven on 46:21 Earth and we can also 46:26 um then interpret that maybe if Heaven is on earth now before you die 46:33 um that hell can be on earth before you die and so my interpretation of Heaven 46:40 versus hell is not oh you're in heaven if you have very fortunate circumstance 46:45 and you're in hell if you have tough circumstance but rather if you are free from the 46:53 egoic view of separation and blame and attachment 46:59 then that is um if you're free of those that is heaven 47:05 heaven on Earth now before you die um but after you have died to the 47:12 present moment which means after the egoic has died so you have heaven after death it's 47:19 heaven after the egoic death um and Hell is What is while the goic 47:28 um sense is still alive so if we want to follow this theme 47:34 you'll find that in Christianity it says um it is harder for a rich man to enter 47:41 the Gates of Heaven than it is for a 47:46 camel to pass through the eye of a needle and 47:51 um you know if we take it literally we would say oh all the rich men are evil 47:57 and they won't get into heaven but what it means by a rich man in my 48:03 interpretation um but my interpretation from a place of fitting the religion into understanding 48:10 right so that's the advantage of um sort of knowing what 48:19 yes 48:28 so yeah 48:34 yeah if um if we look at it that way and we say okay so it's harder for a rich 48:42 man or how hard for a rich man to get into heaven than it is for a camel to 48:47 pass through the eye of a needle what it's saying is if you have attachments if you identify as being the 48:57 rich man or the poor man really the inverse of the rich man so if someone is 49:03 attached two outcomes attached to being rich 49:10 wanting to be rich or being rich that means that the burden 49:16 that you are carrying is what prevents the movement into heaven that attachment is what so you 49:24 can actually be physically Rich can have a lot of money in your bank account but if you are free of the attachment to 49:32 that money that doesn't mean you will go and you'll just throw your money away or just give it 49:38 away it means that you know yourself independent of 49:44 your your assets or your friends even so a 49:50 rich man can be someone with a lot of friends if you look at it metaphorically 49:55 um but if the person is very attached to their friendships meaning 50:02 it's very important for them to be liked 50:08 um that in a moment when let's say something happens that um 50:14 puts them into some Scandal and then everyone is thinking um badly of them 50:20 that rich person meaning attached to those outcome is in hell 50:28 um and so the freedom of Heaven is there when there has been a turning inward 50:36 and a recognizing of ourself and realizing oh this is what is really 50:42 important this is what's really needed okay thank you so Roger because there is 50:49 also the saying that um like at the end like Jesus Christ 50:54 come and there will be like a judgment and there will be there will be even 51:00 resurrection of the dead so can we say that the resurrection of the debt is like resurrection of this 51:07 or just like go wrong wrong thing like the clouded one who not seeing the part 51:15 which is given like for the favorite favorite ones when 51:20 which we mean the ones who feel disconnected to the the whole 51:27 and maybe it does it maybe this can be like the interpretation for for this 51:33 part what what do you think well um 51:39 uh religions for the masses also um work on fear 51:47 um that is one of the motivating factors for the egoic self and so 51:55 um there's a number of reasons why uh religion will include certain 52:01 Concepts that um we will stop believing in at some point 52:08 we will move Beyond um that and also because religions were 52:14 a form of control not only um 52:19 control in a way that is negative but control in a way that might shape Society to be 52:27 a Kinder Society a better society which is not necessarily 52:33 about wisdom being Kinder and better as people 52:39 but we can't ignore that as far as Society goes if Society can achieve 52:47 um certain control over the negative aspects or encourage people even through 52:55 fear to not act a certain way then that is valid and so I think 53:02 religions put this notion of being judged after death out there as 53:10 um an idea a concept that motivates people to 53:17 um be afraid of doing things wrong and uh 53:24 that that can be valuable or can be important as part of a seeking until 53:30 such time as we realize actually I want to move past 53:35 this notion of fear and how I should or shouldn't live um 53:40 and we will tend to 53:46 move past that when we see that that is um has its limitations and that actually 53:53 being um very judgmental of ourself so if we 53:59 have an idea of a god that is going to judge us and send us to hell then we say well if God is going to 54:07 judge us I should judge me myself um and so by that being put in place 54:12 actually it serves to be the basis that will allow us to move past 54:17 that type of thinking um when we see how it it limits us at 54:23 some point so I would um suggest that there's a possibility that 54:28 this notion of judgment after death is maybe the 54:34 um just as a mechanism in in religions to make people fearful that help create 54:42 certain behaviors and then that very fear allows a person to go beyond living 54:49 that way living in constant judgment okay okay thank you 54:56 in the last the last one because you know there's also like the the story 55:03 about Adam e and Eve and the the see the first scene from their side 55:11 and um I looking for English words for this 55:16 like like past from from the for Korea from this like country to another 55:24 country like by the blood like real people like we have in the the 55:30 possibilities like for the same so but when I hear you I can take 55:38 um like safe like for social like maybe correct me if I I'm wrong that uh in 55:46 what use propose is that because the the 55:52 bad is that the body mind is connected to the gut there is no like distinction so there is no like 55:59 um there is no like I would say there is no like space for the scene because there is no like 56:06 different differences between hours hour 56:12 and and the god like the the conscious sure so it depends on how we Define the 56:21 word sin um so the normal standard is oh we are 56:27 all separate independent um people with our own free will and if we act in 56:36 defiance of God's will if we act because of our Free Will in 56:42 defiance of God's will then we are sinning that is the normal interpretation 56:50 and God's will in Christianity and in probably in the other religion systems 56:57 is laid out for us in the Ten Commandments for example thou shall not 57:03 kill thou shall not covet the neighbor's wife um thou shall not steal 57:09 um and so on so there's all of these rules that are God's Will and so if you 57:14 do anything because of your free will different to God's will your sinning 57:20 and what you've pointed out which is true is that if we don't have 57:26 independent free will if we are not separate independent entities functioning 57:33 exclusively because of our choice then the notion of sin 57:41 starts to not hold water because if we see that 57:46 well I'm functioning exactly the way God created me to function 57:51 so it is God who designed me that has designed me in a way that 57:59 forces me to break his rules so then it doesn't seem fair that he can 58:06 punish me for breaking the rules that he forced me to break if we look at sin as being as I would 58:16 suggest when we take it less literally and we see what is meant by sin 58:22 um and we start looking at it as misunderstanding um in fact if you go to the Latin 58:29 origins of the world word sin it's mistake or error 58:35 um so the original sin which Adam and Eve 58:41 um poor after Adam and Eve at the Apple then we are said 58:48 that all of their descendants all of humanity has the seed of original sin in them 58:55 um if we look at it more metaphorically we can say original sin means error and 59:01 that is the error that we are all born with of seeing life incorrectly 59:07 and if you look at what um it stemmed from it stemmed from them 59:13 eating the apple and the Apple came from the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil 59:18 and it's a very specific tree right the the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil duality 59:25 so at the time when they had the Apple they fell from Grace they found themselves 59:32 transported Out of Heaven into hell um or out of the Garden of Eden into you 59:41 know a place where they felt self-conscious they blamed each other they felt disconnected they felt like 59:47 they had been abandoned and thrown out um so that is where the separation 59:53 happened because they ate the fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil 59:58 and that is a metaphor for when the brain started looking at The 1:00:06 Duality and saying that is good that is bad I want this I don't want that which 1:00:12 is the opposite of seeing everything as it is as a part of the whole 1:00:17 so the knowledge of Good and Evil which sounds like a good thing to have 1:00:23 actually is the dualistic attachment of the Mind setting in where there is 1:00:31 this obsession with separating everything into good and bad essentially 1:00:37 my preference my pleasure and my pain I want pleasure I don't want pain 1:00:43 that 1:00:49 so that is well the essence has forgotten that interactive but I wanted to add so 1:00:55 like in the moment of listening to you so we we like should be like the 1:01:01 innocent innocence child who doesn't know like who they they don't know what 1:01:08 is the judgment and the judgment is the the root of the like troubles 1:01:14 but yeah and so but but I think you believe in like that I I hope I but but 1:01:21 so I ask you do you believe that the the action has consequences 1:01:27 action definitely has consequences but um to judge one's actions that led to 1:01:36 certain consequences afterwards to then create an extra layer on top of 1:01:41 the consequence um an extra layer of suffering and 1:01:47 intensity so if you if we act in a 1:01:53 certain way we're either going to get a good result or a bad result 1:01:59 that is unavoidable the judgment is an extra load on top of 1:02:06 the pleasure or the pain of the outcome and so if the Judgment stops 1:02:13 then we will continue to function we will continue to 1:02:19 have consequences pleasurable pain but the blame and the judgment and the the 1:02:24 shame um and furthermore the expectation in the future Falls away and then there is 1:02:31 just an allowing of the biological entity to function as it functions without the psychological overlay 1:02:39 yeah I think I'm like grateful for this 1:02:45 as a good connection with you and yeah enough from me thanks take care 1:02:53 foreign 1:03:05 okay yes I can 1:03:11 thank you for all your sharings and over the weeks uh Things Are 1:03:16 unfolding at uh it is such a blessing to witness 1:03:25 foreign this sounds positive 1:03:30 yes yes something I wanted to [Music] um 1:03:36 today was um if if you could shower some up-to-date conditioning on relating to 1:03:45 life and other from a place of victimhood so uh how does victimhood fit 1:03:52 in the five forms of suffering and maybe a little bit more clarity on where how 1:03:59 does it get so deeply ingrained and if there are any useful 1:04:05 um I guess conditions transform it or to be to be a problem 1:04:12 yeah it's good um so it's I think it's very important for us to 1:04:20 um see certain movements that are common to us or recurrent in us and 1:04:28 for us to really um identify them as one of the forms of suffering 1:04:34 because once we've identified it it means it is going to continuously 1:04:42 be seen on the radar um so essentially we're our radar has 1:04:48 been programmed to now know that movement as a movement of suffering and 1:04:54 if it's a movement of suffering hopefully we can know it's a movement of ignorance and if we know it's a movement 1:05:00 of ignorance we may see yes it's happening because we might not be able to control it and it 1:05:08 may not stop but at least there can be an understanding that the 1:05:14 basis is misunderstanding and therefore whatever story comes out of that 1:05:22 um there can be an attitude towards it that says but really is this true really 1:05:28 this probably isn't about my true Essence this is more about 1:05:35 the false um which is the very opposite of what 1:05:40 normally happens with the forms of suffering the form normal forms of suffering is that there is a complete 1:05:46 involvement and getting lost in the story as if whatever I am thinking about 1:05:52 what the other did for example or what I didn't do or how I should have acted there is a thinking about that as if it 1:06:00 is absolutely true and is absolutely vital that what I'm thinking is believed 1:06:08 or or rather what I'm thinking is seen to be absolutely true 1:06:15 um and when that's the case then the narrative carries on 1:06:21 um from with much more intensity and for much longer than when it is started to 1:06:26 be seen oh there is that there is that imposter again there is 1:06:32 that thinking and actually it's not really it's just propaganda it's just 1:06:38 made up stuff um that essentially means a dropping out of 1:06:46 it can happen because we know it's nonsense at least on some level we know 1:06:51 it's nonsense because it comes from misunderstand it is the false self in 1:06:57 action so victimhood is a combination of attachment to outcomes 1:07:02 and do a ship blame um so if we are the if we feel that we 1:07:10 are a victim then there is a perpetrator and the perpetrator is the one we are 1:07:16 blaming um they shouldn't be the perpetrator they shouldn't be treating me like this 1:07:23 um and the the other part of the victimhood 1:07:29 is I need certain things respect from the other I 1:07:37 need acceptance from the other I need truth from the other I need 1:07:43 um even physical safety from the other 1:07:48 now that's not to say that all of those things are not um 1:07:55 very somewhat important on a biological level 1:08:01 but the victimhood is a psychological movement that 1:08:07 is a commentary on these things that happen or have 1:08:14 happened and it's that commentary that 1:08:19 is very different so we might say you know it's it's not valuable for this 1:08:25 commentary to stop because it's it's saying how important 1:08:30 all of these things are and there's a part of us that 1:08:39 will to the ability of Destiny and our 1:08:44 circumstance implement or try to make the situation 1:08:51 um better independent of the narrative independent 1:08:56 of the story and in fact if the story Falls away that 1:09:02 biological functioning capacity um gets more it has more energy or is is 1:09:10 empowered more so what I mean by that is if someone is um not being a good friend for example 1:09:17 you don't have to have a narrative about it you just conclude oh I thought they were my friend they they 1:09:24 think that they're my friend but in fact they talk about me behind my back 1:09:30 um and so you say well it doesn't need to be fixed it's just there's a realization that 1:09:37 we're not really friends we thought we were friends we're not friends so let me stop acting towards 1:09:44 that person as if we're friends I don't have to act as if we're enemies but I can see by the actual situation that 1:09:51 we're not friends so now I need to get my head around the fact we're not friends I'm not their enemy 1:09:56 uh uh and that's it that's the end of it um the the situation has been dealt with 1:10:05 the narrative won't deal with it but it will just carry on about 1:10:11 you know how the person shouldn't be speaking to you about behind your back and it's an identity it doesn't want to 1:10:18 die um and so all of these things have to be 1:10:24 seen um and as they're seeing the shifting out of the narrative 1:10:32 understanding that I can stop thinking about it which doesn't mean I won't I'll become impotent we we often think if I 1:10:39 stop having this story then I'll be impotent and I will just 1:10:45 accept um abuse for example and very often in victimhood the abuse 1:10:53 is um you can feel some you can have a victim personality 1:10:59 even when there is not much really going on 1:11:05 and if that happens to be an identity the identity will create 1:11:10 a vision that suits its identity 1:11:15 um which it will create it'll it'll either create a perception of 1:11:21 being a victim even when there isn't one it might even create circumstance 1:11:28 where there was no problem and it actually goes in and on a biological 1:11:33 level of circumstantial level creates a problem so that it feels then it it can 1:11:40 feel like itself so it can create a situation where the other gets aggressive because it's you someone has 1:11:48 provoked the other and then once the other gets aggressive then the victim can feel comfortable in 1:11:55 an ironic sense it can feel ah here I am I am the victim 1:12:05 s like I'm the wisdom and I was right and that just uh yields the identity 1:12:11 even more that there you go there and I was I was right to be a victim 1:12:18 yeah yeah yeah I can't remember what book it was it was a long time ago 1:12:26 um and it it described the four different types 1:12:32 um of people and one of them I think was um well one was victim the other was 1:12:38 perpetrator and two other types it might have been um The Celestine Prophecy I think or 1:12:45 something along those lines um and when I read it it was amazing you know you once you get 1:12:52 come across characterizations of phenomena that often aren't 1:12:58 characterized and then you you read something that characterizes essentially 1:13:04 puts a description onto it it's so helpful because it then allows 1:13:10 us to see that in action in a way that had been overlooked so 1:13:18 in in this regard and even going back to what yarick was saying earlier 1:13:23 we often want to fix um things because we've identif we've heard 1:13:29 that there are let's say sub-optimal so we might hear that 1:13:34 um attachment to outcome or victimhood is a form of suffering so then 1:13:42 our attachment to outcome says okay let me stop 1:13:48 being like that um which is not always possible so I 1:13:53 would also suggest that we just um 1:13:59 uh see it when it's happening and and in a way exclaim to ourselves I am such a 1:14:06 victim you know I am not not in a condemning way but in a 1:14:13 sort of um describing way where we're not trying to change it 1:14:19 we're just acknowledging here I am again look at look at the victim at Play 1:14:26 or if we are a very anxious person we might just say wow I am such an 1:14:34 anxious person or um blaming we see ourselves blaming 1:14:41 and often the movement is I want to stop blaming but there's so much more value 1:14:48 in being aware of these things so where we can really 1:14:54 say oh I really do blame a lot um and it's amazing how 1:15:02 if if we actually say that that is a um sign that the egoic self is really 1:15:09 diminishing the doership is really diminishing because someone where the doership is strong 1:15:16 they can't acknowledge um these things because acknowledging 1:15:21 these things means they the Doer is a failure 1:15:29 um because as soon as you acknowledge anything that is a shortcoming 1:15:34 um and you believe you are a doer you're basically saying I am failing 1:15:41 which is why um strong sense of personal doership 1:15:46 has a a very hard time at being objective and and seeing things 1:15:53 you know the good and the bad your own good points and your own shortcomings 1:15:59 so if we can start looking at our shortcomings and exclaiming them like say where you 1:16:07 um can freely say yes I am grumpy or I am 1:16:14 anxious I blame I judge I feel a lot of guilt 1:16:20 and hopefully and I'm sure or not hopefully if we're able to say that it means that there is a deep recognition 1:16:27 that really this is just a movement has has been 1:16:33 programmed um it is my destiny to be judgmental to 1:16:39 be blaming to be whatever so um yeah 1:16:44 maybe that helps there are a few 1:16:51 um Dynamics in the system that are less um easy to explain like that than others 1:17:00 so it really helps to um 1:17:06 what would be one that is I'll put you on the spot won't be one that is harder to exclaim 1:17:12 than something else it's an opportunity well this victim had just appeared uh 1:17:20 out of blame so like the blaming was happening over something that wasn't even a real situation as you just 1:17:26 mentioned that we create something um uh it was like it was a very aha moment 1:17:34 it was like oh this is not blame I am playing a victim 1:17:40 but the hardest one for me to accept is my own 1:17:45 um my own judgment of myself and I mean 1:17:50 perfect in the way that not delivering pain to the other and if I do that I 1:17:56 fail and in that moment that guilt and shame is is 1:18:03 um so yummy I guess that uh it's it's very difficult to see that objectively 1:18:10 and fight with it in the moment um you know in um relationships 1:18:19 um uh I think we're so programmed to 1:18:26 give what we think is um 1:18:32 um an entitlement of the other um so you know someone can ask for 1:18:40 um to talk to us for example um and 1:18:46 the reality of the situation is that we might not be available to talk 1:18:52 um we might not be emotionally available we might be physically either because we're tired or 1:19:00 because we're busy we might not feel like talking whatever it is 1:19:05 um and to be able to honor that meaning to say I 1:19:12 I and maybe we um let's say don't even need to say it nicely we may not be capable of saying 1:19:19 it nicely um so you might say actually I I don't want to talk 1:19:24 now um the notion 1:19:30 if but someone might say I just want to communicate about this situation 1:19:36 it sounds you know when it's presented like that it sounds like um 1:19:41 it's you can't argue with that it's almost like one of these 1:19:48 presuppositions that are put in place that give you no option and the truth is you might not want to 1:19:55 communicate you might not want to talk about it and for us to actually be able to say 1:20:01 you know I you sure you might want to communicate you might want to talk about 1:20:06 the story but I don't um and finding that authenticity 1:20:14 um we which requires that something inside to go who says that we need to who says 1:20:22 that I feel like talking about it whatever so another 1:20:29 example could be a partner that says you know you never want to spend time 1:20:34 together or you don't enjoy going out and doing things you work so much or 1:20:39 whatever it is um and we're in a way we're programmed 1:20:45 because they they all sound like things that we should do 1:20:51 um and we might not be designed like that so that that means we might not be an ideal partner and we've got to 1:20:57 acknowledge then um is if we see oh I but I don't feel 1:21:03 like um spending time or going out or whatever 1:21:09 we're being um criticized of and the criticism 1:21:16 we will criticize ourselves because we aren't willing to accept 1:21:22 um ourself with shortcomings or differences they might not even be 1:21:29 shortcomings they might just be different to what the other person wants so at some point to be able to to honor 1:21:36 what we really feel like and challenge our 1:21:42 deeply ingrained attachment in the form of wanting to give to the 1:21:48 other as much pleasure or to be perfect which therefore means 1:21:55 we have to sort of contort ourselves to appear perfect um which really means we're not going to 1:22:01 be able to say I'm sorry I don't feel like talking which seems like a perfectly reasonable 1:22:09 request you know to to have a conversation but is it a perfectly reasonable request 1:22:15 if you don't feel like it um so yes you know you you mentioned this thing about 1:22:21 wanting to please the other or wanting to deliver pleasure 1:22:26 yeah um and if you don't then you feel guilt um and I think it's uh a very important 1:22:33 thing for us to come back come into an authenticity and and start to stand in that place 1:22:42 rather than where we have tended to to stand primarily because of our 1:22:50 attachment to love um and and make that change 1:22:56 when it was a spot on example that's exactly 1:23:02 um the team has been uh over the years manifested innovative 1:23:09 personality shut and that surprises people not in a good 1:23:16 way sometimes and even family so wanting to talk to 1:23:23 is not an unreasonable request but again I don't feel like it and and it gets 1:23:30 hard when it's parents and harder when it's in-laws uh as a daughter-in-law so 1:23:36 so definitely this advice is uh happening because I am able to tell 1:23:42 sometimes White Lies sometimes just answer in yes and no because words don't 1:23:47 come and honor that rather than making stuff up and and slowly it is working 1:23:53 its way through so yes very valid guidance thank you 1:23:59 yeah you're welcome and don't expect the other to um to understand uh 1:24:05 but also don't expect them never to understand because sometimes we have 1:24:11 these imaginations in our head of what the consequence will be if we start 1:24:17 being authentic and often the consequence is not at all what we 1:24:24 imagine um and it can often work much more 1:24:29 smoothly than we might have anticipated let's go 1:24:35 um hi kavya 1:24:44 hi Roger um can you hear me yes I can okay so sometimes in regards 1:24:54 to that previous conversation you know um when somebody doesn't respond to me 1:25:04 um for example in an email then I'll say you know I sent you an email and you 1:25:14 um you didn't respond and when that person says well I don't always respond 1:25:20 I'm okay with it you know but I think it's difficult when 1:25:27 it's people that haven't understood uh and done done work 1:25:34 um my initial response for sending an email to somebody who hasn't responded 1:25:39 is oh they don't like me you know which comes from the doership not from a sense of blaming them it 1:25:48 comes from my own a sense of doership but anyhow yes sometimes I'm learning to 1:25:55 say uh no and it feels good because I don't feel like I'm being mean or or or 1:26:02 or or anything like that it's just I'm honoring myself so yeah I think it's easier when there 1:26:09 are people that understand and have done the work um and the other thing I wanted to say 1:26:16 as I was talking last week um you know about the attributes of God 1:26:22 I'm working on that so I won't spend time on that um 1:26:27 you know as you said before I'm being lived so therefore uh the infinite 1:26:33 Consciousness is experiencing itself through me 1:26:39 and correct me if I'm wrong so so I feel 1:26:45 like because it's right here right now that when I'm out of mind and doership 1:26:52 I am being led and I am doing really well 1:26:58 you know and when I'm not in this thinking mind like last week trying to 1:27:04 figure everything out and really know it so therefore I'll be happy rather than 1:27:09 like you said today just go along and and be in the quiet tube and and and 1:27:15 I've said this the other day to people um that you know when I'm in that 1:27:24 non-thinking stage of figuring things out because you know the other doership 1:27:29 when I recognize that I'm able to you know shift perspective because I 1:27:36 know it's I know the truth of it thankfully from you um but I'm able to be in that 1:27:44 light-hearted sense and so I went to um Southport the other day and I'm 1:27:51 walking along the pier and I do this all the time I walk up to people and talk 1:27:56 and engage and and and I can be naturally you know myself but when I get in 1:28:04 situations you know where I have to think about things and stuff I I kind of 1:28:10 uh uh I'm guarded and you know even in even in this moment it's kind of tricky 1:28:17 but but yeah I I also wanted to say I thank you for the teaching Roger I'm 1:28:25 really appreciative of of me being led to you 1:28:31 and learning what I've learned I'm kind of sad that you might not be there all 1:28:36 the time but um but that's okay I've got other videos 1:28:41 I'll watch and um yeah so I think with your your 1:28:48 very uh intricate looking at things is the way my mind works so it's been 1:28:56 very helpful to me and I'm appreciative so thank you you're very welcome that's nice to hear 1:29:04 and um yeah if when someone's watched all the videos 10 times then 1:29:11 um then uh then they've run out of material I might have to give some more talks yeah 1:29:18 there's plenty plenty on YouTube um but yeah that's great thanks for 1:29:23 saying that and uh and you're a good Aussie and I appreciate it 1:29:29 and I just love to hear the way you speak it's so it's so beautifully uh uh 1:29:35 you know your your accent and the way you speak is very eloquent and I'm very grateful to you in everything thank you 1:29:44 thank you caveat 1:29:54 okay someone called I 1:30:00 was lucky lucky dip 1:30:21 uh hi Melissa 1:30:26 hi hi Roger can you hear me yes okay well okay 1:30:33 um so I I'm I continue to be very very grateful for 1:30:42 your emphasis on the um the both the top down and the bottom 1:30:49 up uh um component of of our understanding and 1:30:58 how um how uh it's how how our experience is 1:31:08 the the meeting point of um of those uh you know that 1:31:16 placeless place um that um it 1:31:22 it and um that I continue to uh to 1:31:29 um Ponder um my understanding of it and and also 1:31:35 to experiment so to speak with the 1:31:40 experience of it of of living 1:31:46 that understanding Moment by moment 1:31:52 um and um that actually uh right right now a 1:31:58 situation like this of trying to to to speak about that experience 1:32:06 is a kind of a perfect kind of um uh 1:32:13 um challenge to to be 1:32:18 to be um to be experiencing it and living in 1:32:24 front from it right at this moment 1:32:29 so um and I think that uh your your talk this 1:32:38 morning um and pointing out that that when Rupert was um emphasizing the he was 1:32:47 emphasizing one side of that equation and that the the 1:32:55 that it's so so important to keep the the entire equation the the both sides 1:33:04 of the equation are equally are equally so 1:33:10 um and and that emphasizing either one side or the other is kind of an error 1:33:17 let me just add emphasizing it as a teaching isn't an error in fact if you 1:33:25 um if all teachings were balanced there never would be the 1:33:31 the switching to see the side that isn't seen so from a teaching point of view 1:33:36 when a teaching emphasizes one particular perspective 1:33:41 to the point where if you took it literally it would be saying this is right and anything else is wrong 1:33:48 um that is completely valid in my view as a teaching But ultimately our 1:33:54 understanding needs to end up being much more balanced but I 1:33:59 think that the balanced view that holds both sides of the coin or understands both sides of the coin 1:34:07 only comes after we have gone through teachings that have 1:34:12 really emphasized the side that we are not familiar with yes so 1:34:19 um I think I've found um 1:34:24 this balance but that makes it sound like oh this is better than a one-sided teaching 1:34:32 but I don't think it is at all I just think it has its place so you pointed out yes the bottom 1:34:38 bottom up and top down are held together in this teaching but that's because that's what this teaching is 1:34:46 um yeah so yeah I because it definitely wasn't there wasn't a criticism of 1:34:53 yeah you know Nissa godart is teaching ramana's teaching we could say are quite 1:35:00 one-sided but one-sided is what is needed a lot of the time yeah yeah yes yes thank you yes that um and and I 1:35:09 think that's part of why I'm I feel very much drawn now to uh to listening to 1:35:20 how you you are um transmitting 1:35:25 um uh ramash's uh and and of course and he was transmitting from the whole 1:35:32 lineage um uh that that um 1:35:38 emphasizes the balance but but it's because I've had 1:35:43 um actually years of uh 1:35:49 exposure to teachings that that emphasized the top down and and how 1:35:57 important it was to have that because I had to I had to 1:36:02 rebalance from from all of the conditioning of believing of being just 1:36:10 a separate self so yes yes I see you're that's absolutely true that that then you know 1:36:17 yes the other side of the equation had to be emphasized and and along those 1:36:24 lines I wonder if this might also be valid that when you were just when I 1:36:29 think when you were talking with uh Jared um that uh the the 1:36:37 abrahamic religions the um uh Judaism 1:36:42 Christianity and Islam that in a way um perhaps the fundamental error that 1:36:51 those those religions um uh created so to speak was 1:36:58 um separating man and God or separating God from uh human 1:37:07 um and and and creating a gulf that was 1:37:12 that was um uh you know seemingly uncrossable 1:37:19 um despite the fact that Jesus himself tried to point differently uh you know and I I and my 1:37:28 father are one but um us you know that that got uh 1:37:35 that was seen as blasphemy um and and then and then was was further 1:37:42 covered up um but that the the mystical branches of 1:37:48 those three religions um the the Kabbalah which is I think is the mystical branch of Judaism and uh 1:37:56 the the gnostics and the new thought movement of Christianity and the sufis 1:38:02 of Islam they tried to point they tried to point back again 1:38:09 to the Oneness the Oneness of you know that that they're that the the the top 1:38:17 down and the bottom up are one and and how difficult it has been to for the for 1:38:25 the mystical Branch to uh to overcome that uh 1:38:32 that uh that I I guess you could say the 1:38:38 um the the wanting to cling to materiality and believe that there's 1:38:47 there's a gap between um mind and matter or God and and human 1:38:54 rather than seeing the individuation as an expression of the infinite 1:39:03 hmm yeah that's very that's what teachings though that's the difference in in 1:39:09 teachings and so we might actually say when we look at what you describe as the abrahamic teachings that create a divide 1:39:17 between man and God we might actually say Well they're not really teachings because they have that 1:39:23 inherent um what we could call a floor in them but what we need to also appreciate is 1:39:31 that a teaching is always talking to the Seeker and the Seeker 1:39:37 has a divide inside of them and that divide 1:39:42 is progressively getting smaller and smaller and the Divide is the egoic self 1:39:48 and the distance um or the separation of the go itself and the true self 1:39:55 um and so a teaching needs to talk to the 1:40:00 Seeker um and that's why the dualistic teachings are there is 1:40:07 because teaching that doesn't talk in terms of 1:40:13 dualism just we'll be talking over the head of the Seeker meaning not talking 1:40:19 over the head there just wouldn't be a resonance with that teaching for the 1:40:24 vast majority of seekers and by Seekers I don't necessarily mean seekers in the field of non-duality but 1:40:33 just anyone interested in in even mainstream 1:40:40 uh very literal religion um so uh as I see it 1:40:48 you know the what you've described as the Gnostic or the Transcendent teachings they're really there for a 1:40:55 small percentage of seekers that have got to the point where the Divide within oneself is 1:41:04 is um The Gap is close enough that talk of Oneness 1:41:10 can actually um resonate and what we find is that often when we 1:41:18 come to a point where there is this flip-flopping that happens where we have periods of 1:41:23 um feeling at peace and like the seeking has ended and that there's nothing to 1:41:29 seek and then we flip into um is suffering again 1:41:36 and disconnection and what we'll find is that when 1:41:41 we're in suffering in the Flop phase that's when we talk to God that's where 1:41:47 we pray we ask for guidance we ask for help um from Angels or from gods or ascended 1:41:53 masters or whatever because in those moments The Divide inside of us 1:41:59 is at its Str it's it's intent it's expressing in 1:42:04 in its intensity that's what suffering is and so therefore internally 1:42:11 we ask we speak to an external God that doesn't exist but 1:42:17 um that's what makes sense that's what um 1:42:22 what happened and when we go into the flip which is 1:42:28 um The Suffering dissolves then it doesn't in a way it doesn't even make 1:42:34 sense for us to we we stop talking to a god that is outside of us 1:42:41 um and in fact we might realize in that flip where things are seen clearly 1:42:47 that I am essentially god 1:42:54 um in that when the suffering it's it's the the egoic self has no wisdom and so it feels 1:43:02 like it needs to ask for wisdom from outside but I think it's asking 1:43:08 the part of our system so it's all within the one system but 1:43:13 the egoic self is asking what we could call the higher 1:43:19 self or the wise self and it feels like it is outside of it 1:43:24 um separate not not it and when that egoic self dissolves in in 1:43:30 moments where or times when there is wisdom then 1:43:36 it we realize oh I am I am the wise one I am the god that the 1:43:44 go itself is is asking for help it's just that that part has been cut off 1:43:51 um and so I think that's a something that we might be able to explore for ourselves and realize that 1:43:59 oh God is actually the wise part of me um and then it might make sense why God 1:44:07 in the in the in the teachings the abrahamic teachings is described as 1:44:13 outside because that's how it's experienced um 1:44:19 is enough of that egoic sense of self 1:44:25 yeah yeah that makes a 1:44:31 great sense yes thank you you're welcome thanks Melissa 1:44:40 Chris hi hey 1:44:46 oops hello I'm gonna turn my video on hey 1:44:53 um I've got a question just after thinking what you were just saying um 1:44:59 do you think there'll ever be a time on Earth where there could be 1:45:05 uh where people were children uh right off the bat don't ever get taught in a 1:45:13 world that makes them separate makes them think they're separate but they stay conscious 1:45:19 like they are like we all are and uh that that this is probably more 1:45:27 of a philosophical it doesn't need to go into deep stuff but that um 1:45:33 that that might be happening and that over in in eventually there won't be the 1:45:38 need to go through this life of separation and suffering but children 1:45:45 are actually in an environment where they stay conscious and are okay with 1:45:50 that just as they are and that it's a better world I don't know 1:45:56 whatever you want to however you want to describe that and is that even a goal or is that is is there a need to go through 1:46:04 this dark time so that we can become enlightened I became I would say 1:46:10 conscious of my Essential being about three years ago and I'm 55 years old 1:46:17 um so I'm going through like Melissa was saying a process of rebalancing after 55 1:46:24 years of being off balance 20 of those being in a Christian cult that taught 1:46:29 Heaven and Hell and you know come to God but God's the way you come to God is 1:46:35 that you know God's mad at you and you're being punished so you need 1:46:41 someone else to forgive you of your sin like that and go through that whole religious process uh and then that's 1:46:49 that fails in terms of being satisfying do you do you believe personally Roger 1:46:56 do you believe that that that's something that is on the track for the 1:47:03 evolution of humanity is curious um yeah I think I think it's 1:47:09 inevitable um so I and I don't say that from a belief point of view I I say that from a 1:47:15 observation of Dynamics at play 1:47:20 um and what we see throughout history which is 1:47:26 um let's say individuals that see life differently 1:47:32 and get to experience themself more clearly or at least find a different 1:47:39 ground of being that is an expression of the inevitability 1:47:45 um because it happened in one person 1:47:50 and then we see it continues to happen so it's like lights going off in the 1:47:57 darkness let's say um and we see one light and then two 1:48:02 more lights and then five more lights and ten lights out of billions 1:48:07 um but the number is growing and so the first one was 1:48:13 oh it's essentially was like the first mushroom that came out of the ground 1:48:19 um it showed what was inevitable so the first mushroom was inevitable 1:48:26 um and then so if you saw the first mushroom 1:48:32 um you might not have thought it but with with more understanding of Dynamics you 1:48:39 would say well more mushrooms are inevitable um infinitely more mushrooms are 1:48:45 inevitable it's just a matter of time and um so I 1:48:52 looking at the Dynamics of information that's what essentially 1:49:00 um brought about the shift is information and processing of the 1:49:06 individual that contemplated that had thought about the meaning of life and 1:49:12 um eventually there were more and more teachings available 1:49:17 handed down let's say from a time when there were no teachings and it sprung up 1:49:23 in one individual realizations Etc and then the benefit of teachings 1:49:29 written and shared in other ways accelerate the process 1:49:35 for those that come next and over time more and more 1:49:41 um versions uh pop-up that suit a broader variety of 1:49:47 personality types so there's much more uh 1:49:53 teaching scope let's say available um eventually it'll go into schools 1:50:00 parents will be much more conscious which then means 1:50:06 kids will come up into a into a household and into a society that is much more conscious and the tendency 1:50:13 that currently the the sort of funnel that we get funneled down now 1:50:20 um or in in the past is not going to be the same tunnel slash 1:50:27 funnel that someone finds themselves being born into and that's going to have 1:50:32 a massive effect because essentially we are a product of the genes and 1:50:38 up-to-date conditioning that's how this manifestation works even if this 1:50:43 manifestation ultimately has a more Transcendent Transcendent 1:50:49 cause and someone might say oh well you know um 1:50:55 this causal explanation is not at all how things happen things happen because 1:51:02 you know Source spontaneously creates it that way and that's it um 1:51:07 what I look at and say okay yeah that could be um correct but this manifestation that 1:51:14 is spontaneously arising is consistently a manifestation that unfolds according 1:51:21 to the laws of cause and effect um according to a story of time and 1:51:26 space and so then looking at 1:51:32 the laws on the level of the manifestation even if there is a sort of 1:51:37 more Transcendent set of reasons ex because those essentially the 1:51:45 manifestation is going to be designed to be a manifestation that unfolds 1:51:51 in practice because of cause and effect and in practice the cause and effect is genes 1:51:57 and up-to-date conditioning even if those genes are not to date conditioning are part of the spontaneous 1:52:04 manifestation um so that's why I answer it the way I 1:52:10 did so from my point of view it isn't a belief a lot of people don't see that same 1:52:17 Dynamics I'm talking about so when I talk about this and say I think it's inevitable that if 1:52:23 there's enough time if we don't blow ourselves up if the story of Life Is For Humanity to be wiped out before 1:52:30 sufficient time passes I say it's inevitable someone hears me 1:52:36 say that and says oh you know that they just see a different set of Dynamics so that they they're seeing how 1:52:43 we in their view we're getting further and further away from truth it's not how 1:52:49 I see it um so the way I see it says it's inevitable 1:52:54 someone else sees life differently maybe not as clearly I I think I see it 1:53:00 clearly but I might be wrong um and they would say no not at all I don't think we're going to have 1:53:06 a bunch of population that sees life clearly I 1:53:12 think we are there's the the Shambhala the city of 1:53:19 Shambala in the Buddhist tradition they that is the city of a mythical city or 1:53:27 they kind of believe that it really was a place where there was only 1:53:32 bodhisattva's everybody was a a servant you know 1:53:39 enlightened was an enlightened human living serving loving 1:53:46 everything was you know uh full of light and vision 1:53:51 so maybe that becomes real some day in the in the history of what we call 1:53:59 history of the Earth yeah 1:54:06 well you see that might already exist and there might just be a very small percentage of people born into that 1:54:13 world that um uh are sort of the anomalies and so they 1:54:19 get sent into this simulation of Earth to to correct that 1:54:24 um so you know there might be a world where 99.8 are already enlightened and what we 1:54:34 know of is life should be a training program for the The Misfits 1:54:40 um and uh yeah so do you believe in avatars then 1:54:49 uh or no not really um I mean I see the 1:54:55 um I I can relatively see uh a reason for it because I often 1:55:04 um look at things one in merits of teachings which so teaching to me can 1:55:09 create a whole sort of framework that sets everything up within a certain 1:55:15 framework and it's not really the truth but it's a very powerful framework to bring about 1:55:21 change um and so Notions of enlightened Masters and 1:55:27 avatars you know that I an avatar in the sense I think you're talking about 1:55:32 people who are born enlightened right 1:55:38 which Romano was was notioned to be there somehow or his Incarnation was the 1:55:46 final incarnation of generations of of uh in light of people 1:55:52 who were coming to enlightenment and then he just and he said it himself 1:55:57 he was just born into the final the final one 1:56:03 and it happened when he was just a kid he didn't have anything to really choose it was chosen and he's locked in it and 1:56:12 he kept going in that path almost like he couldn't say no 1:56:17 but yeah okay well that's interesting and that's true that that tracks because uh 1:56:25 the source is immaterial and no there's no time and no 1:56:31 place so it could be other worlds and we are incarnating into 1:56:37 today and into the Earth and we like you say it could be some other May many we 1:56:43 don't know we just don't know we just have to go with what we experience 1:56:49 today yeah in in this teaching ultimately we say 1:56:55 um make it about something very practical because it's so easy to go off in to all sorts of philosophy and we 1:57:04 don't even realize when we're going off into philosophy and so if we keep saying 1:57:09 it Enlightenment in its practical manifestation is unbroken peace of mind 1:57:18 for the human being in this life and Peace of Mind Is the End 1:57:26 of the guilt the blame the pride the worry and the expectation 1:57:34 um which has takes all of those five headings have a whole range of sub 1:57:42 Expressions um so on the blame there would be hatred jealousy 1:57:49 um and and so on uh so yeah Enlightenment in its practical 1:57:55 terms is happiness in this life for this human being and happiness turns out to be 1:58:01 peace of mind which turns out to be the end of a lot of psychological suffering 1:58:14 thanks thanks Chris thank you you're welcome 1:58:21 well thank you all for joining and see you see you same time next week